Aw, crap.

[agilebrit]

I have a deep and abiding inability to just let things go.

As I may have mentioned in a previous post, I got into a small argument with the writer GoH, Michael Stackpole, during a CONduit panel this weekend. The argument was whether you can learn anything by writing fanfic. I, of course, am firmly in the camp that you do. I maintain that I would not be nearly the writer I am today (which is, apparently, not all that, considering the number of rejections I've gotten just this week), without the practice I obtained writing fanworks.

Mr. Stackpole said that it was like putting on "training wheels," and you'd be better off just jumping on the bike and going for a ride. This...may be true. I wouldn't know; I didn't come up that way. I didn't begin writing until Spike started whispering in my ear. Whether or not I'd be ahead of the game had I started writing original fiction is moot, because I wasn't actually inspired to write original fiction.

So. Leaving aside the fact that we write what we're inspired to write...

I find this attitude rather comical coming from someone who gets paid (generously) to write what is basically Star Wars fanfic.

And I would have liked to ask him (why can't I think of these questions in the heat of the moment???) if he didn't learn anything about writing, while writing in the Star Wars 'verse. Did the only time he learned techniques like characterization, dialogue, plot, pacing, etc, only happen when he wrote his own characters?

Because, that strikes me as being a patently ridiculous argument, especially considering the source.

At least now I have an debating point to toss at tie-in writers *cough*LeeGoldberg*cough* when they holler and shout about how fanfic doesn't teach you anything about writing.

Comments

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

Almost all the writers who speak disparagingly about fanfic *cough*LeeGoldberg*cough* are really fanfic writers who get paid for it. Possibly they feel threatened by people who do the same thing without getting paid - if the networks/studios ever looked at fanfic, rather than just instantly firing off cease and desist letters whenever it comes to their attention, they'd realise that it's a huge pool of free resources that would enable them to fire Lee Goldberg (well, perhaps not him, I don't think that anyone can be arsed to write Monk fanfic), Michael Stackpole, et al.

[agilebrit.livejournal.com]

There's got to be something to explain the frothing hatred these guys have for fanfic, and I think you just nailed it. They're afraid the amateurs will do better than they do.

Not that Stackpole was frothing, but he was...rather adamant. "You shouldn't need training wheels." "Well, sir, some of us do." It was a lively panel.

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

I was going to comment then realised that my husband has said more or less what I would have, already! You can see why we are married....

[lady-moriel.livejournal.com]

Y'know, I'm all for people writing OF--well, heck, except for a select few lucky stiffs who literally write published fanfic and another select few who get noticed and published because of their fanfic, the vast majority of us will never get paid for it. But saying that a writer can't learn anything from fanfic is--well, pretty much like saying that a writer didn't learn anything from anything he didn't publish, which is patently ridiculous. Besides, good fanfic is almost exactly like historical fiction--you already have a predefined world in which you must work, but you still have to develop characterization, plot, etc.

For myself? Fanfic got me into writing before I even heard of the term (ridiculously bad and non-canonical Star Wars fic, actually. I was like 12, okay?), and now--well, in some ways OF is a lot more satisfying just because if I actually do manage to finish something that I'm satisfied with (which, so far, is...never), I can look at it and say, look, here's a finished product that I can attempt to sell, that I can be proud of, that I can give to anyone to read without a labored explanation of "Well, if you're not in this fandom, what you have to understand is..." But on the other hand? The very reasons fanfic isn't profitable make it highly valuable to me. Because I never really have to worry about having to convince an editor or a jury of my peers (read: workshop) that it's any good and that I know what I'm doing, I can relax and...play. My writing's never terribly experimental, all things considered, but I've never written any OF stories in present tense, either, let alone second-person present tense, and I've never done anything even close to the fragmented stream-of-consciousness I've tried in fics like "A Movement of Darkness on Darkness" (nor so much shameless Eliot geekery, either). I don't have anywhere near as much insecurity about "Oh wait but somebody will think this part is stupid," so I trust myself and my subconscious a little more, and while second-guessing myself can be useful (generally, if I vaguely think there's as problem, everyone else will too), not being so neurotic about it lets me stretch my writing muscles a lot more. Does that help me grow as a writer? Absolutely.

[agilebrit.livejournal.com]

Exactly.

And it's hilarious how personally affronted these guys seem to get, that people dare to write fanfic in universes that they write in themselves but didn't create. They act like we walk into their houses and steal food directly from their children's mouths.

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

I was told at a con last year by a professional writer that I'm "too good to write fanfic". I know he meant it as a compliment. I know I should take it that way. But I LIKE writing fanfic, darn it.

[agilebrit.livejournal.com]

Some people don't get that fanfic, for lots of writers, is a hobby. It's something we do for fun, like other people collect stamps or climb rocks or train dogs or...whatever it is that people do with no expectation of profit, for relaxation. Of course, banging your head on a keyboard on a daily basis is a funny way to "relax," but the finished product can be so satisfying that it's worth the blood, sweat, tears, and angst we pour into it.

[neo-prodigy.livejournal.com]

In regards to rejections reflecting your skills as a writer, read this essay from Dee Rimbaud: http://www.rimbaud.org.uk/aaipg2.html

In regards to fan fiction allow me to say this, I've personally have never written or read a lot of it myself primarily for two reasons. 1. Bad writers create the most unrealistic stories that have nothing to do with the characters and it's obvious the story is just an example of their own personal fantasy and literary masturbation. 2. Good writers will write some amazing pieces and as much as I love them (because sometimes they're better than the "official stories"), I know they aren't canon so technically they don't count so it's frustrating.

My reasons are mine alone and by no means do I think they should be the universal standard for everyone else.

However I respect the art of fan fiction (and yes I believe it's an art) and those who enjoy it. So even if it's not my cup of tea, if it brings joy to others, more power to them.

What really gets under my skin however are these ostentatious writers who piss on fan fiction. The difference between fanfic writers and a scriptwriter or someone writing an umpteenth Star Wars novel is a paycheck. The same problems I've found with bad fanfic are the same problems I've found in the novelizations of many of my favorite fandoms.

Writing fiction is writing fiction and whether it's your own universe or someone else's the same lessons you learn about dialogue, characterization, plot, pacing, etc. from original fic, you can also learn from fan fiction.

[agilebrit.livejournal.com]

The same problems I've found with bad fanfic are the same problems I've found in the novelizations of many of my favorite fandoms.

OMG, exactly. I can't tell you how many tie-in novels I've read that are phoned-in pieces of crap* that would be better off lining a birdcage than a bookshelf. And for a tie-in writer to say that "you can't learn anything by writing fanfic" strikes me as the height of silliness.

I will freely admit that I picked up some bad habits writing fanfic. My description is weak, my death scenes frequently lack punch (until I rewrite them), and I can't seem to do "long" to save my life.

On the other hand, my characterization is consistent--I've had plenty of practice writing many different characters from many walks of life, and with many points of view that I don't necessarily share. I learned how to finish a story--and while my endings sometime suck like big sucking things, at least there's an END at the bottom and I have words on the page to work with.

*Disclaimer: I'm certainly not saying that Mr. Stackpole is one of the crappy ones. He doesn't write in a fandom I'm interested in, so I've never read any of his books.

Why some writers do not recommend you write fanfic

[(Anonymous)]

I don't know a thing about the person you are directly talking about who thinks fanfic is bad. But as a writer who has met some fanfic writers in the past, and who wants to encourage writers, one reason I don't recommend it is that so few fanfic writers break out into the mainstream and get their stuff published. And some of them ARE really good writers who should do so. Fanfic can become addictive, a crutch and an on-line love fest. I met two woman who were writing fanfic back when Prodigy and AOL were the ONLY internet providers (or seemed to be), and the "bulletin boards" were where people "met." I so wished those two gals would get as enthusiastic about writing their own stuff as they were about writing interactive fanfic. One did finally progress and got a book published. The other, over ten years later, has not.
Most published writers encourage other, upcoming writers. Most are not at all threatened by other writers. No one else understands us and what we do like other writers. So, try to see what the person is trying to tell you which I also believe. Yes, you can learn by writing fanfic. But you can learn more, quicker, by writing original fiction. If you never expect to want to do anything else, that's fine. But if you are saying this is a great leaning tool, many writers who are published are going to disagree with you. They are trying to be helpful. Honest.
Love, Mom

Re: Why some writers do not recommend you write fanfic

[agilebrit.livejournal.com]

Apparently, you're still not signed in. Argh.

I'm speaking from my own experience in writing, when I say it's a good learning tool. I'm not sure I would have ever put hand to keyboard in the first place if it hadn't been for fanfiction--and I wrote what I was inspired (or prompted) to write, which is a huge part of the process: Getting the plot bunny, and finishing...sometimes on a deadline.

And naturally, not everyone learns the same way. I, personally, needed to get my feet wet writing fanfic first, but my experience certainly isn't the be-all and end-all of writing. Would I have learned faster had I started writing original fiction first? Eh, maybe. But who's to say I would have ever started at all?

The people who say that you can't learn anything from writing fanfic are demonstrably wrong. Can it be a crutch? You betcha. But it can also be a springboard. You know two other women and me who got started writing fanfic. Two-thirds of them are now published, paid writers. That's an admittedly small pool to draw from, but it's pretty good numbers from where I'm sitting.

Also, the dude saying "you can't learn anything" was a tie-in writer, on a panel on "Playing in Other People's Sandboxes." I didn't go there to get sand kicked in my face, thank you very much. Seriously, the more I think about this, the more I laugh my ass off, because otherwise I'd be throwing things. It's the absolutism of the "can't" that sticks in my craw, I think. Mr. Stackpole was being encouraging to a point, but the thing about "you shouldn't need training wheels" and the attitude that "everyone should learn the same way" (cookie-cutter learning) is just...argh. Yeah. Here's me, being all articulate and stuff.

Not everyone wants to be a published author. Some people do it as a hobby, like other people collect stamps or climb rocks...or draw. Should everyone who carries a sketchpad around aspire to be a bestselling artist? Lots of people aren't cut out for the grind of rejection and market-hunting and all the other hooraw that goes with trying to get published, and I'm darned if I'm going to tell them that they're wasting their time or that they shouldn't do this thing that brings them joy. At least the people who write fanfic are actually writing, and not sitting around going "Oh, I always wanted to be a writer."

[myfeetshowit.livejournal.com]

I can see both sides of the argument.

I used my fanfiction, myself, to experiment with writing that I knew wouldn't be sellable in today's market because it was old-fashioned, and I learned many things I wouldn't have, attempting to please an editor.

Even more than the writing, I think betaing fanfiction has helped me. I was able to see problems in other people's work, and realize I was committing the same sins myself.

[agilebrit.livejournal.com]

Beta-reading and writers' groups are a freaking godsend. It's still hard for me to step outside my own writing and figure out what's wrong with it, but I've gotten better at it the more I crit other writers. At least I'm figuring out the questions to ask.

[texanfan.livejournal.com]

That is a ridiculous attitude for a writer of professional fanfic.

[agilebrit.livejournal.com]

I know! I wanted to look at him and go "Are you serious? Seriously serious? Because...dude."

[ezagaaikwe.livejournal.com]

I think he's mistaken. I look at my own fic epic, and the improvement in technique from beginning to end is obvious (it was almost four years in the writing).

Sounds like he's talking out of his ass.

[agilebrit.livejournal.com]

Yeah. It's the absolutist statement that rubs me the wrong way, I think. That and the fact that a tie-in writer said it.

[mermaidrain.livejournal.com]

I've been an original writer since childhood. I didn't know what fanfic was until a few years ago when a friend introduced me to it and challenged me to write some of my own (in fact, that was how I got into writing fanfic at all). But I don't see anything wrong with writing it. I think it IS good practice and a good learning field. As long as you don't let it be all you write (I have a friend who spends copious amounts of time writing fanfic and nothing else, because of fear I think) and you actually DO use it to learn something about writing (unlike some of these people that just use it as some sort of weird copulatory experience for their fantasies). Obviously it worked for you. If there's one thing I've learned as a writer and reading about writing it's that there is NO steady rule about writing and how writers approach the craft. Everyone has a different method. Sounds like this guy is .. confused about what it is he does though. LOL! ;)

[agilebrit.livejournal.com]

I'm sure he's a nice enough guy. He just has a blind spot when it comes to this subject--as many do.

You know what, though? I'm not going to tell anyone what they "should be" writing. If they're happy writing masturbatory fantasies, go, them. It's not my personal cup of tea, and I won't read it, but at least they're writing. It's (usually) only when they get bratty about concrit that my claws come out. Not everyone wants to be a professionally published writer, just like not everyone who carries a sketchpad around wants to be an artist with a gallery opening somewhere.

[mermaidrain.livejournal.com]

Well, it's those 2nd writers I was talking about. LOL! ;) There is a market for erotica after all, and there's some very well written slash. I'm talking about the 12 year olds who just write it for whatever reason and don't want the concrit to learn to improve. I remember some comments in your LJ about such writers and some of the dreck they managed to put on paper (or cyberspace as the case may be). BUT I've never critiqued them either, so I too am not saying what should be written. As a former English teacher, I firmly believe that ANY writing is good writing. ;)

FanFic

[janchristensen.livejournal.com]

Says Log out at the top of my screen. I assume this means I am logged in.
Apparently you have forgotten or blocked out that you wrote a whole novel, derivative, i admit, when you were in high school. You talk about the critiques--you can get those without writing fanfic, without the distraction of what people might think you are doing to the characters as they see them. Do you really think if you spent 10 hours on fanfic, or 10 hours on original fic when learning that you would learn more with the fanfic? I can see that it might be a good jumping of point for some people. I'm not saying that you can't learn from using it. I just think it takes longer to learn that way. How much do you learn about characterization (making your own characters) and settings (making your own) if you use someone else's)? How do you develop your own voice? I would guess you can learn a lot about plotting. And from what I've read on your blog, and about this guy who wrote fanfic and is now deriding it, it appears that people who write it can be quite anippy, a lot o them. Is this helpful? I rarely find this in the mystery writer's community. Sure,there are some bad apples, but the good ones far outweigh them. Maybe I'm not getting a true picture of the community. I can see that many who read your blog are quite encouraging. You think you might never have started writing without using fanfic, but what if you'd just joined a couple of fantasy or science fiction groups on-line instead of a fanfic one? wouldn't you have perhaps jumped right in there, as you did with fanfic? We'll never know. You know how I like efficiency. This just seems an inefficient way to go about becoming a published writer, if that is the eventual goal. And you can't quite convince me that it's a really good way. The writer I mentioned who eventually got published (romance)? I'm afraid she's not really very good. And that is not only MY opinion.
FWIW
Love always, Mom who really is glad you got here, however it was done and however long it took

Re: FanFic

[agilebrit.livejournal.com]

Yay for being logged in!

I remember that horrible thing I wrote in high school. Which I never actually finished. I think I might even still have it around somewhere, scarily enough.

But you do develop your own voice when writing fic, just as you do writing anything else. If you put fics in front of me, in the same fandoms, written by three different friends of mine, I'm betting I could tell you who wrote which. Just because you're writing in someone else's 'verse doesn't mean you don't have a style all your own. Look at the tie-in novels that are phoned in, versus the really exceptional fanfic written by people who love the characters. It's easy to tell the difference.

I don't think Mr. Stackpole ever wrote "fanfic" per se, but many of us in the fan community regard tie-in works as, basically, glorified fanfic. And he wasn't "nasty," just...rather firm in his opinion. Lee Goldberg, now, he's another story. And he's a mystery writer. ;)

I never got inspired to write as an adult until Spike started whispering in my ear. I created original characters to interact with the canon ones. I put them in different places than the show--such as Moab (that scene is still one of my favorites I've ever written), and Lampasas, and Africa. People seem to think that all you do is parrot what's on the screen, which couldn't be farther from the truth. We do things with them and to them that could never happen in canon, and not just with smut. We pair characters up who will never even kiss onscreen. Sometimes we pair characters up who will never even meet onscreen. I wrote crossovers between shows that take place 500 years apart. You're flexing a creative muscle there, especially if you want to make it plausible.

And, at least in the 'verses I played in, you have so many disparate characters to work with, all with their own unique voices and mannerisms. It's a shortcut to characterization, sure, but it helps with consistency. If you can write a story with no dialogue tags, but everyone still knows who's talking, you've succeeded.

And seriously, having a reviewer say "Dude, that could have been an episode" is nearly as happy-making (not quite! but nearly) as getting paid.

Would I have learned faster by writing original fic? I don't know, that's the Road Not Taken. Did I have loads of fun writing fanfic? You betcha. But starting out writing original fiction isn't a sure-fire way to become a good writer either. Look at Cassie Edwards, who (probably a safe bet, don't know for sure) never wrote fanfic in her life. And then look at Naomi Novik, who is brilliant...and started out writing fanfic. Still writes it, in fact.

I can tell you this much: My output, now that I'm writing original stories, has dropped precipitously. That first million words doesn't come easy, and it comes even less easy when you're banging your head on the keyboard because the words. Aren't. There. I didn't have that problem nearly so much when I was writing fanfic.

It all comes down to the individual and how they're comfortable learning. You might blame fanfic for holding me back, but I'll always love it because it gave me wings.