Watch me watch Lewis and Tolkien spin in their graves...

[agilebrit]

I just saw an ad for "The Golden Compass" that said it was "A brilliant fantasy in the tradition of Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia." YEAH. Because those two devout men would totally endorse a movie or book series whose author is an avowed atheist, and in which God dies at the end of the trilogy by falling out of bed.

That reviewer (whoever it was) is completely clueless...

Which, yeah, shouldn't surprise me. Not really. But it does make my head all desky.

Comments

[bojojoti.livejournal.com]

Okay, that is just mind-blowing.

[agilebrit.livejournal.com]

I mean, okay, high fantasy, rah rah. But to compare it to those two works? I understand that they have this bizarre need to compare it to something, but, dude. That's just completely inappropriate.

[inlovewithnight.livejournal.com]

Those are the two high fantasy book series that were recently adapted into successful movies.

I really don't think it's any deeper than that.

[agilebrit.livejournal.com]

It's totally NOT any deeper than that. But using the words "in the tradition of" makes MY brain at least go to a place where, if I didn't know any better, I'd be thinking, "Cool. Another fantasy movie I can enjoy that won't attack my faith." And this is so not the case with this. Or at least, it's not the case with the whole series; I understand the first book is pretty good. But I'm not going to buy into the first one knowing what happens in the last one, and I think it's kind of misleading to market it that way.

[inlovewithnight.livejournal.com]

I guess I hear "in the tradition of" and think more along the lines of "magic, possibly talking animals, childlike heroes saving the world." But, well. I guess it depends on where you're coming from.

[perseph.livejournal.com]

I haven't read the books yet, but several friends who loved and recommend them, and two of them did so to me specifically because I loved the chronicles of Narnia so much and so will probably like these. They are all grand fantasies, so it seems a good comparison. He's not saying that CS Lewis or Tokein would like or endorse the books after all - just that these books are good for people who like fantasies of that sort.

Though from recent reading due to the controversy, I've learned that Pullman doesn't like his books being compared to Narnia as he is troubled by the unfortunate undertones of racism and sexism in the Narnia Chronicles.

Any references to God and religion have been omitted from the movie because the producers were chicken and trying to avoid controversy (doesn't seem to have worked). But also it's not supposed to be an attack on Christianity or any religion in particular (according to the author and supporters such as the Archbishop of Canterbury) but rather commentary on religious oppression such as went on with the Taliban in Afghanistan or in the times of the Spanish Inquisition or numerous other examples from history. I personally find the whole controversy rather ridiculous.

[agilebrit.livejournal.com]

He's probably more troubled by the fact that Narnia is an explicitly Christian world. *snerk*

I'm not really sure there were too many references to "god" in the first book (not having read it) to be excised (and, to be fair, I've heard that "The Golden Compass" is pretty good), but in the third one it's crystal clear what Pullman's point is. He can couch it in "commentary on religious oppression," but the fact is that God dies in his book, and this is supposedly a good thing, and the people who bring it about are heroes.

It's a shame. I wanted to like it. Yay for genre movies and all that, and the polar bears look awesome. But I won't be going to see this one.

[fierynotes.livejournal.com]

"He's probably more troubled by the fact that Narnia is an explicitly Christian world. *snerk*"

I can't speak for Pullman, obviously, but despite being an atheist myself, I love C.S.Lewis' books dearly. And not just Narnia: I have The Problem of Pain, The Screwtape Letters (hilarious stuff), and several others of his works.

(On the other hand, it was when I heard that Pullman was an atheist that I became interested in The Golden Compass. Sorry.)

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I've read the books twice, and whoever told you that the children "kill God" is in grave error because that's not what happens.

God does not die in the books. It is a being pretending to be God (or at least "a god"). The creature has aged over time, was overthrown, and was basically being held captive by creatures who were (if possible) worse. Meanwhile, the religion in Lyria's world has been hopelessly corrupted by power and is pretty much quashing dissent of all kinds.

The books are not, at all, atheistic. Gnostic Christian, yes. There is a nod to the idea that there's something above "the Authority (i.e., the being/beings pretending to be God)," but it becomes clear in the third book that "the Authority" and "the Church" and God (and God is not defined in the novels) are three very different things and none are like the other.

So you can go see the move without fear and/or guilt.

[texanfan.livejournal.com]

One quibble with your statement. Gnosticism is not Christianity. Jesus Christ is an important figure in the religion but it isn't Christianity. This does not invalidate any of your arguments and as you have read the books and I have not I bow to your superior knowledge there. But Gnosticism was considered heresy before the New Testament was finished being written.

[wisemack.livejournal.com]

Aaaah, thank you for this comment. I told a friend last night about the Gnosticism comment, and she blinked a few times and said, "but Gnosticism isn't Christianity!" Since knows waaaaay more than I do about such topics (she was raised Southern Baptist, and worked in a faith-based organization for years), I blinked back and say, "Oh, okay, thanks," and vowed to do some research.

Interesting the arguments that keep popping up about Pullman. I don't have a source for the quote, but he is supposed to have said that one of his aims in writing His Dark Materials was to introduce children to the idea of atheism. I think I'll research that one, too.

[palmaceae.livejournal.com]

God dies at the end of the trilogy by falling out of bed.

....
how exactly does that work?

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

As someone who's read the books, twice, that statement is incorrect.

The children kill a being that had masqueraded as God, but was being held captive by other beings that are doing thing's in the fake god's name.

The books are not about atheism. They use Gnostic Christianity as a template.

[kurukami.livejournal.com]

It said nothing about either of those authors endorsing a thing. But all three of them lie in the same general category of "adult-styled fantasy" stories, told in more than one book.

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

I'm sure he just meant in the style of those movies. Not in the basis of the mythology.

Lewis' story is metaphor (though he denied it) and Tolkein's is Christian only in that good finally defeats evil.

Kevin Smith is a Catholic Christian (potty mouth notwithstanding) and in Dogma God gets mugged and ends up in the hospital. He has to die in order to be freed to go back to heaven. I find that a very faith-affirming movie.

But I think you're looking too deep into the reviewer's intent.

[aadler]

Lewis didn’t deny the Christian connection; his objection was that of an educated man saying, “No, ‘metaphor’ means such-and-such, which definition doesn’t apply to what I’ve done.” (Or he may have been referring to allegory, I don’t recall precisely, but I remember seeing his position precisely explained.)

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

You're right. It was allegory.

[texanfan.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I'd never heard of this series until I started seeing trailers for the movie. It's a shame becasue it looked pretty but no way I'm going to it.

All the reviewer is seeing is big fantasy epic. Deeper themes, like anything past armor and magical creatures is obviously beyond him.

[aadler]

Yeah. They “only” kill a being who’s pretending to be God as part of an overarching work to insist that no God actually exists.

And, yes, the author is on record as vocally despising the Chronicles of Narnia (and C.S. Lewis as well) because he so violently despises Christianity.

It’s not intolerance to respond to intolerance by saying, “Well, I don’t like that at all.”

[wisemack.livejournal.com]

*sigh* I keep seeing stuff about Pullman's books and that damned movie and my reply is always the same: GO READ WHAT PULLMAN SAID about his own writing, in what he himself said was the best interview he'd participated in.

http://www.thirdway.org.uk/past/showpage.asp?page=3949

And personally? I found the first book rather delightful, but the second went to a place that I found extremely unpleasant, and the third was just dreadful - creeped me out to the point that I will never EVER re-read it.

And the movie version? Nope, no way, no how. (My holiday viewing is going to consist of Atonement and that's about all.)

[texanfan.livejournal.com]

Read the interview. I could pick it apart but I really see no point in doing so. From what he says about his own books I can tell they aren't the sort of books I enjoy. i'm not saying I must have a happy ending but I do prefer a satisfactory ending. I don't intend to see the movie or read the books. Even if the first of both is truly enjoyable I find it difficult to embark on the journey knowing I will find disappointment further down the road.

I do appreciate the link to the interview. As you say, it is always best to read what is being talked about for oneself and until now I was working from hearsay.

[yesthatnagia.livejournal.com]

I read the series back when I was devout. (I'm not anymore, but that has more to do with other Christians than with any atheists or atheistic theories.)

Firstly, the children do NOT kill God. They kill the Metatron, who is PRETENDING to be God and is really not a very nice dude at all. And while Pullman himself despises Christianity, that doesn't show up in the books. What shows up in the books is a hatred of legalism and mindless obedience.

Personally, I'd see The Golden Compass over Narnia any day.

[foxcutter.livejournal.com]

I read the book when it was still the only book in the series and wasn't all the impressed with it and the movie trailers make me think more of Eragon then it does of Narnia or LotR. On the other hand I just love the trailer for Prince Caspian. Frankly I still love the Narnia books to this day even if I am agnostic (I never was very religious), but I don't really think you need to be anything to enjoy the books, other then willing to enjoy them.

[agilebrit.livejournal.com]

Ooo, I haven't seen the trailer for "Prince Caspian" yet. We did see a poster for it last time we were in the theater, and I did... er, quite a bit flailing. And the Hubby was all "What?" He had no idea, not being a fiction reader. LOL Now I'll have to go forth and find the trailer. :)